Using an AFD

[Hoody]

Richard, Steve G, Bill and others...

I've been on a lot of jobs whether employed through a company, or private contractor where we/they were using air scrubbers and or AFD's to clean the air. I've noticed a majority of the time there wasn't enough equipment to perform those tasks properly. A lot just want to get paid because they put the piece of equipment on the job because they know it needs to be there. But many don't really know what's needed/recommended for each situation, or how to calculate that.

Remind the class - How many air exchanges an hour are needed/required during different situations. Cat 2/3, mold, smoke and fire.

For anyone reading that doesn't know how to calculate that.

Say you own the HEPA 500 by Dri-Eaz. The unit pulls 500 CFM. 500 x 60 = 3000 CFH(cubic ft per hour) If you have an area that is 10x15x8 it equals 1200 CF. If your situation called for 4 exchanges and hour. That means you'd have to cycle 1200 x 4 times making that 4800 CF. Your one HEPA 500 wouldn't be efficient enough to perform that task. You would want to add another unit, or use a larger CFM unit to perform the task.


Is there a general rule of thumb that 4 exchanges an hour will work best? Are there times where we need less, or more?

Has anyone done any real world testing if different filters affect the perform of these units ?

Since the IICRC is pushing the use of AFD's in most every situation. I thought it'd be a good topic to bring up.
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[dealtimeman]

Steve,

i think most guys know the calculations but also know that Adjusters don't want to pay for air scrubbers regardless of the calculations. So if they can place at least one on the job and get paid for it they rather do that instead of placing multiple and the adjuster coming back at the end and state that they don't pay for negative air machines or air scrubbers even though it is clearly recommended in the standard.

We usually will place more than enough air scrubbers and just charge for half of the units used. We place no charge in bold for the units we don't charge for and it usually translates to getting paid faster.

 

[dealtimeman]

We have not done any testing we just place more units on the job than our calculations suggest.

we do it more for liability.

also change out main Hepa filters more regularly than we used to, again for liability purposes.

 

[Hoody]

Its a real pain to get paid on them I agree. I've used them more for liability as well or creating a positive moment of truth for the client. "Mr & Mrs Piff - We wanted to let you know that while we're performing the clean up and mitigation of your loss, we will also be cleansing the air so bacteria/mold/soot/odors do not travel through the home and affect undamaged areas." Or something similar, it just gives the feel good feeling that you care, and want to really solve the issue they've probably been traumatized with.

But back to the question, is 4 exchanges an hour good enough, or do we need more in some situations ?

I know most of us know the calculations, but there are a lot of newbies that read here to gain info to see if they want to jump into this type of work, so I included them.

 

[Desk Jockey]

We use them all the time but don’t always get paid on all of them. Mostly used to cover our butt with elderly and young as well as those with compromised immune systems.

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[dealtimeman]

Steven,

i believe the 4ph is good enough unless there is seem data to prove otherwise.

in other words I have never been in a situation where we did the quick number and said I think we could use 6 exchanges per hour instead of four.

have you?

what made you ponder this?

do you have any data suggesting a need for higher rate of exchange?

 

[Hoody]

Michael,

I didn't start the discussion to really ask the question for myself. I agree 4 has always been enough air exchanges for any purposes I needed an air scrubber or AFD. However I've not taken any classes in the last 4 years or so and didn't know if there was something new for specific situations. I decided to start the topic for any newbies browsing the forum that want to get in restoration work. Which worked out wonderfully because of your and Richard's comments about how hard it is to get paid for those pieces of equipment.

When I was really green into WDR I wanted to tout and note standards to an adjuster that the job needed this or that, and they were going to pay it. In hindsight it was a stupid mistake because I probably ruined relationships with adjusters that would have referred me. Sometimes we have to eat some things to still get paid, but still need to do the job right for liability. That is something that isn't taught in a class, and is great information on what you can give, and what you have to stand your ground on.

 

[dealtimeman]

The biggest single thing I have learned about the restoration side of the biz is to understand all parties particular role on the job as a whole.

with that said I have many a time been infuriated with the ignorance of adjusters for not paying this or not paying that just because they went to one class and think they know it all.


Now I try to step back and see there role or scope or work on the job we are both working on. Their job is to ADJUST the totals and keep "us" the "rich and very profitable" restoration companies from taking advantage of the insurance system.

We actually place air scrubbers on all jobs regardless of cat or class. We also with approval of insured, deodorize all jobs, we hit every estimate with a emergency service call and always have superviser hours as well as cleaning tech hours on every invoice.

Sometimes we get lucky and they just pay everything, but most of the time they will want to do some adjusting ( seeing as that is their job). And now I don't see it as a bad thing but just part of the industry that we are in. We communicate as much as we can with adjusters and actually let them think they are running the job in some cases with the "special ones".

Knowing that they will or won't pay for this or that is an advantage to you and you should use it to make more money.

at the end of they day they just need to show their supervisor that they dropped your invoice total by a percentage and that's how they do their job.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Michael I think they question us just to see if we can validate why we did this or why we charged that.

I have no problem with them questioning line items because if we can't justify why it's being charged then we shouldn't be charging it.

I have problems when they are too dense to recognize the need for a service or piece of equipment or they pretend to act as if the service is not needed when they know it is.

 

[dealtimeman]

Yes the issue we have with some insurance companies is the old " blank blank insurance co doesn't pay for emergency service calls" type of thing.

I just don't like that some of the bigger insurance co consider or think that all of us are going to work on their program rates when we are not on ther program at all.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Welcome to the party!